The Pain of Loss with Robert White

In this powerful kick-off to the first season of the Care for Pastors Podcast, host Robby Bolden sits down with Dr. Robert White, a pastor, counselor, and coach, to explore the profound pain of loss in ministry. Through personal, vulnerable storytelling, Dr. White recounts his own experience with divorce during his tenure as a senior pastor and how it brought him to the brink of despair. His moving story includes finding hope on the floor in prayer, learning to forgive, and discovering unexpected purpose and fruitfulness after devastation.

Listeners will gain insight into why God sometimes “suffers the tree”—withholding what we think we need to deepen our spiritual roots. Dr. White discusses the stigma pastors face after divorce, the importance of seeking help, and how pain can become the seedbed for a greater ministry. The conversation is filled with honesty, practical advice, and compassion for hurting leaders.

Dr. White’s journey reminds us that no situation is hopeless while serving a risen Savior and that God does not waste our pain. Leaders and their families in any season of loss will find wisdom, empathy, and renewed hope in this episode.

This conversation explores themes of:

• How loss and heartbreak can deepen your compassion and ministry impact
• Why vulnerability and honesty matter for leaders
• The daily discipline of forgiveness and what it looks like in practice
• Learning to process pain in community rather than isolation
• Finding hope and renewed calling after devastating personal loss

Resources mentioned on the episode:

Care for Pastors

GriefShare.org

The Meaning of Marriage by Tim Keller

It Wasn’t Supposed to Be This Way by Lysa TerKeurst

The Pastors’ Ally Private Facebook Group

The Confidante for Pastors’ Wives Private Facebook Group

If this episode spoke to you or someone you love, please share it with others in ministry who may be struggling. Subscribe to the Care for Pastors Podcast so you never miss an episode and leave a review to help others find support.

About our Guest:

Dr. Robert White was raised in central Florida and completed his Bachelor’s degree at the University of Central Florida. After college, he completed the Master of Divinity and Doctor of Ministry degrees at Luther Rice Seminary in Atlanta, Georgia. For more than 40 years he has served as pastor of churches in Florida and in Massachusetts. In October 2016, Dr. White joined Care For Pastors as a Pastoral Counselor/Coach. Robert currently resides with his wife, Kaye, in Leesburg, Florida.

Transcript

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Welcome to the Care for Pastors Podcast. I'm Robby Bolden, your host. Today on the podcast, we will start a new series called The Pain of Ministry. Today we will cover the pain of loss. You know, ministry is one of the greatest joys and privileges leaders get to join Guardian. But along with that, joy is also some deep and profound pain. Pain that can come from within the church. And also, as you'll learn today from our own family. We have Dr. Robert White as our guest today. He will share with us today the pain he experienced as a pastor, and how God used that pain to change him in a profound way. Robert is a husband, a father, pastor, and counselor and is being used of God to coach the next generation of pastors with wisdom and insight. Join me today for the conversation that we're going to have with Robert White. Good morning Robert. Welcome to the podcast. Hey, it's great to be with you, Robby. Robert, in all the time that I've known you, you tell a story that I really think is helpful. And you tell the story of suffering a tree. And I thought that was really interesting. And and I'd like for you to share it with us today. Yeah, sure. It's a true story. Happens a lot in pastoral ministry. I was visiting one of our church members, an elderly church member that had been through some illness, was recovering at home. And so I was driving over to their house to visit with them. And when I got to the driveway, it's a long driveway leading up to the house and on the edge of the driveway. I noticed when I was pulling in that they had planted a new young tree right on the edge of the property. And so I drove this long driveway up to the house, and just as I was pulling up to the house, the, the man I was there to visit came out and greeted me. As I'm getting out of the car and he said, first thing, first words out of his mouth. He said, did you see the the tree I planted out there on the edge of the property? And I said, yeah. I said, I just noticed that when I was pulling in and he said to me, he said, do you know what I'm doing to that tree? And I said, well, it's evident you've staked it out, so you don't want it toppling over. He said, no, I'm suffering that tree. I was not familiar with the term at all. And I said, what? What does that mean? What does it mean that you're suffering the tree? He said, well, right now I've got that tree staked out. The roots of that tree are just about an inch below the surface of the soil, so it's real shallow. And without those stakes holding it up, the wind would just topple it over. So what that tree thinks it needs is water and nourishment. But I'm withholding the water and nourishment that that tree thinks it needs. So the roots of that tree will be driven down deep into the soil, looking for water and nourishment. Therefore, the tree will be anchored in the soil, deep in the soil. And when the wind comes and tries to blow it over, it will be deeply anchored in the soil. And immediately I begin thinking about how that's what God does in our lives. Sometimes he withholds what we think we need in order to drive our spiritual roots deeper into Christ, so that we find what we really need in him. It makes me think of the verse in Colossians that says, rooted and built up in him. And, so that's the story of suffering the tree. Wow. So let me ask you, is there a story behind that story for you? Is there a time when you experienced the suffering of the tree in your own personal life? Yes. Little did I know that that story was going to apply directly to me. And, you know, so often God prepares us with things like that. And, we were ministering in a local church, and, the church was growing, and I was serving as, senior pastor of the church. And, my wife of 27 years said to me, I don't want to be married anymore. After 27 years. And of course, this was the last thing I was expecting to hear. We had when we got married, we had made vows to each other and and said we would not divorce, that that was not part of the vocabulary we would use. And, we were committed in that relationship. And, so when she said that, I was shocked. I was hurt. I was deeply confused and, I felt lost. And I didn't know what to do. So one day, I found myself laying in the floor. In our living room, prostrate before the Lord. And, honestly, I. I just said to the Lord, I said it would be fine with me if you just went ahead and took me home. I was hurting so badly, and I had prayed, I had fasted, I had sought the Lord. And, still nothing. So I was very serious when I said, you know, why don't you just relieve my suffering and and take me home? I was I didn't want to live anymore. Just too painful. And so I'm laying there on the floor, crying out to God. And God just responded. He spoke to me, and I didn't hear an audible voice, but I heard him speaking clearly to me as you and I are speaking right now. And he said to me, I'm not finished with you yet. I'm. And that word from the Lord was all I needed. It's what got me up off the floor. God's spirit just lifted me up and didn't take the pain away, but it sure gave me a purpose. And I knew that the Lord was at work in my life and, I knew enough about God at that point to know that everything he allowed in my life, he would redeem. And so I didn't know how. I didn't know when. I didn't know what he was going to do. I didn't know how he was going to use it. But I was at the point where I said to him, all right, if you can use this pain to further the work of your kingdom and deepen your work in me, then I welcome it. Wow. What a what a big prayer to pray. Yeah, yeah. It's not one I ever expected to pray, but. Right. It was it was a point of brokenness that, really, I had never been to before. Right. How long had it been since your wife told you that she didn't want to be married to you till the time she left? It was a period of about two years. Two years? So you walk through a season of pain that was pretty extensive and long. You know, it was, you know, part of the story was that, You know, my wife filed papers for divorce, and, nobody wants divorce. Nobody plans for it. It was just the last thing I anticipated happening. And here was, I can remember clearly the day I received the papers saying that she had filed for divorce. And I went down to the, court to sign the papers. It was a simple dissolution of marriage, by the way. It only took about five minutes before the, judge. It was easier than paying a traffic ticket. It was really crazy. How quickly that went, but, I went before the clerk of the court to sign the papers and get the court date. And on the paperwork, it said that I had filed for divorce. So I just said to the clerk, I said, I'm sorry, I can't sign this. She said, why not? I said it because it says I'm filing for divorce. She said, it's a simple dissolution. That doesn't matter who's filing. And I said, well, it matters to me. And so I made her fill out the paper correctly, that it was my wife who was filing for divorce. And then I could sign that paper. And, even at that point, I was still praying for reconciliation. I wish I could tell you that the the story ends with, full reconciliation, but it did not happen. And, it took me quite a while to come to terms with that and to recognize that God had a different plan for me, which included something that was unimaginable. Right. So I, went to the court and, five minutes later, I was divorced. And now I carried the shame and dishonor of that. You know, as, as a ordained pastor in the Southern Baptist Convention. When you've been divorced, it's like this stigma. Yeah, that's attached to you. And and there are genuinely some people who will not allow you to speak in their church because you've been divorced. Right. It's kind of like this, scarlet letter that you wear around your around your neck. And it wasn't anything I chose. It wasn't anything I wanted. But it was still something I had to own. Let me ask you a question. Going back to the clerk, why was the distinction so important to you that you were not the one filing for divorce? Well, I, I had made a commitment to the Lord that I would not file for divorce. I meant what I said. And, so it was not going to be me that did that. It was going to be my wife and her decision. And sometimes people make decisions that deeply affect you, and it's out of your control. You know, I'm thinking of pastors whose deacon board makes decisions that directly affect them. And they have no control over it. And it's hurtful. It's painful. And when people make decisions that directly impact you and you have no say, you don't have any control over it at all. It can really shape you. And, it did for me, I, I as I said, I was confused and hurt and felt lost. But, you know, let me just say this. There are things that you learn about God in those very dark places that you can't learn any place else. And so he allows you to go through these things to teach you things about himself that you would not know otherwise. These are not things you learn in a seminary classroom. They are not things you learn out of a book. It is something you learn by walking through, that deeper darkness that, is the unimaginable thing that happened to, you know, Robert, you guys had kids at the time, living at home. Is that correct? How did they respond? You know, both of our children were, one was out of high school and one was just getting ready to graduate. And, you know, they were both confused and hurt as well. And let me just say this, it doesn't really matter how old your kids are when they go through this kind of stuff. They're deeply impacted by the one relationship on the planet that should work, right? Right. It should be, the relationship that is solid and stable and secure and and, you know, it's going to work and all of a sudden, it's doesn't work. And, you have to turn to the Lord and, cry out to him because he's the only one that can get you through it. Yeah. And both of my kids really struggled with that. I encourage them to get counseling and, they did not take advantage of that. But even today, I would encourage, them to take advantage of that. Grateful to have a good relationship with both of my kids. And, You know, they don't ask me about it, and I don't talk about it unless they want to know something. Right? Is that important, Robert? I think it is. And I think it's important that, you know, if you're going through this, you want to protect your kids, as much as possible, because they don't need to deal with the conflict between you and your spouse. That's between you and your spouse. It's not something you want to bring your kids into. And the last thing you want to do is use your kids as a manipulative tool to try to get your way. So, I basically shielded them from everything I knew and, tried to protect them as much as I could. You know, when they ask you questions that you couldn't answer, what did you tell them? I would just say, I really can't talk about that. Just know that your mother loves you, and, only wants the best for you. And I would kind of deflect the conversation like that. I can identify with that. You know, my parents divorced, and he was a pastor. My dad was a pastor. My mom worked at the church as well. And my parents divorced when I was 32. And I don't know what it feels like to have divorced parents at 16, but if it feels like anything at 32, it's super painful because everything you knew to be true in your life has been destroyed. Right. And the and the commitment that you saw that your parents lived through, was no longer there. And it's, man, it is a really hard season for those kids. And, and it was for me, and it was, it's super painful. So I can imagine only the pain you were going through, you know, in that experience. Yeah. It's, you know, it's so difficult because your hopes and dreams, your plans, your expectations of this marriage relationship that's supposed to last a lifetime are now ripped out from under you. And, you know, these dreams are crushed. And everything you had planned in your mind, is now rearranged. It's broken. It's shattered. And it just feels devastating in every way. But one of the things you do to learn through this is that God, even though your circumstances have changed, your relationships have changed. Your life has changed significantly. God has not changed. He is the same. He's faithful in every way. He shows up. He's there. He won't leave you. He will never forsake you. He's present with you. You can count on that. And what you discover in those really dark places is that the Bible is true and God is true, and he really is present, and he really does care. And he answers prayer, and he loves you deeply. And he knows the pain that you're going through, and he understands what you need. And he's not going to swoop in and wave a magic wand and make it all go away. But he will sustain you in the most amazing ways. He's just a faithful God. Robert, you described being on that floor prostrate before the Lord. How did you get off that floor? Well, it was God's. God's specific word to me while I was laying there that he was not finished with me. So I knew at that point he still had purposes for my life. He gave me a purpose. He gave me, a promise at that point. And, he was going to continue working in me, and he was going to continue using me. And he still had plans for me and all of that was communicated. And the Spirit of God just lifted me up off of that floor and set me on my feet and assured me that he would not walk away. I was not alone in this. He was going to be with me and, he would guide me through it. And he did. There were still crisis points where, lots of tears would be shed. And. And the reality of, being divorced, you know, the financial implications, the relational implications. I lost my best friend out of this, who wouldn't return my phone calls. It's just one of the, one of the consequences, the unintended consequences of those kinds of decisions. And, you just find out so many things, and. And the faithful one is God. He is faithful no matter what. He will see you through. And, you find out that his grace really is sufficient for you. And his word really is true. And he really is able to redeem these really painful things that you never anticipated walking through. And, so there's things you learn about God that you can't learn in any other place in your life. And, he is faithful. He is true. And he will, allow you, to be abandoned, to be left without hope. He is a God of hope. And he's the God of healing. And he's able to bring comfort to us in the midst of the worst possible time in our lives. So it sounds like to me, loss is that final, you know? In fact, Robbie, if it just amazes me how, my ministry since the divorce has actually expanded. If you can imagine that. I thought my ministry was over. I thought I'd never get a chance to do any of this again. And. And yet God had greater plans than I could have imagined. And the fruitfulness of ministry and the impact for the kingdom has been greater since my divorce than anything I could accomplish before I was divorced. I'm not advocating for divorce. Please understand. It's it's the worst thing. If I could have gone back and fix that, I would have. But, you know, here you are thinking your life is over, and. And God steps in and opens doors of ministry that could not have possibly been opened any other way. And he built in me a compassion that I did not have for hurting people. And, you know, one of the things that happened is that my eyes were opened to the suffering people that were around me, and I can see it. And, respond to it now with a deeper level of compassion than I ever had before. Right. It's one of the things that he did in me. I'm much more likely to respond out of compassion and grace now than out of, judgment or criticism. Right. So, Robert, one of the things that I don't know, a lot of people, a lot of pastors, ministry leaders tend to do is when they walk through that season is second guess. Is there anything I could have done differently to have held, to to head this off? You ever had those moments? Oh, yeah. You know, in fact, you just go through all the questions and say, well, what could I have done differently? And at that point, you know, for two years, I was trying to figure out, okay, is there anything I can do to fix this? And, you know, it was not a situation that I could fix. Only God could fix that. So I knew that he needed to work in me, and he was doing a work in my life. I invited him to do that deeper work and to, change me in any way that he wanted to. And he was bringing me to a level of brokenness that I had not known before. Right. So, you know, I, I second guessed and I asked questions, and I did everything that I knew to do, and, still. It didn't fix those things, right? Right. So, looking back on all this, how has God, used it in your life and in ministry? Well, he's used it in a number of ways, but, one of the one of the key ways was he prepared me, to be a counselor to people that are hurting. Taught me things and showed me things that I did not know and didn't see. You know, God's Spirit just doesn't work in you when you're in a painful place. Someone once says that, God whispers to us when we're his child and we are walking, through life. But he really shouts to us when we're in pain. And, his voice becomes so clear and so dominant when you're in a painful place that you, you just learn things that you can't learn anyplace else. Right. So he's prepared me as a counselor of others. He's prepared me to help pastors who are going through some of the hardest places of their lives. And, you know, especially when it comes to, marriages, I, I have things that I can share to help people avoid, disaster in their relationship. Things that they can do now to prevent that kind of a disaster. Things that they can work on together. There is hope, and there's redemption in relationships. If we're willing. God will work with us, and he will do a work in us. And, so he prepared me for the ministry that I now have. Yeah. I think that's the kind of the theme for this whole series on pain that we're doing right now is that pain has a purpose, doesn't it? It does. You know, it's not something you want to go through. It's not something you'll ever plan for. But when God allows pain to come to you, it is absolutely amazing the way he uses pain as a seedbed for the greatest ministry you could ever know, right? So, Robert how’s God changed you throughout this process? Well, one of the things that he's done is he's changed my attitude about divorce. And I recognize that divorce is not the final decree. You know, God has the final decree on our lives and how he's going to use us and what he's going to do in us and through us. So he's changed my attitudes. He's, deepened my compassion and, also, I think, made me more alert and sensitive to the leadership of God's Spirit. You learn to hear things from God that maybe you couldn't hear previously. And now you see things in God's word, and you hear things from God's Spirit that, previously were not there. I think he deepens our compassion for hurting people when we go through pain. It's one of the benefits of painful things is that it teaches you about God's faithfulness. It teaches you about the true promises of God. Every one of his promises are true, and it deepens your compassion and your capacity for ministry to hurting people. Yeah, that is, that's a lesson you can't learn any other way, is or. No, there's no there's no class or no book, for that kind of stuff. And you just have to walk through it. And thankfully, you don't have to walk through it alone. Robert, you mentioned that this whole event was something you didn't want, and it was you were taken there by someone that you loved deeply. And you given your life to. And so I guess my question to you is how do you handle the pain that people you love, you inflict upon you. And there's not a thing you can do about it. Yeah. What do you do. Well, I knew just from God's word that what was required of me was forgiveness. That I would need to forgive the deep betrayal and and the personal pain that I was experiencing. And I would need to forgive those involved in that. And specifically, I needed to forgive my spouse. So I didn't feel like doing that. Imagine. Yeah. You know, I had a lot of hurt and, and some anger and those things that were issues I needed to deal with. And. Oh, by the way, I sought out counseling. I needed some counseling, I needed perspective, I needed somebody to come alongside me and help me to see things that I couldn't see because I was, looking through a lens of pain. And so somebody had to shine some light on my circumstances and help me to see what God was up to. That I couldn't see. And I needed counseling. And so I sort it out, and I was grateful that I did. One of the things the counselor said to me is, I want you to write out everything that's been done to you. That was painful. And I did. He said, now, what are you going to do with that? And I said, I'm gonna tear it up and burn it. Yeah. And, he said, I think that's a good thing to do with that. And I said, I'm, making a choice to forgive. Not because I feel like forgiving, but because it's the right thing to do. And, you know, God, God says in his word, be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God in Christ has forgiven you. So I knew I had an obligation to God. I had a moral responsibility to him to make the choice to forgive those who had betrayed me. And, and hurt me so deeply. And so I made that choice. It was a choice. It's a decision that I made, and I had the capacity to do that because I was indwelt by the Spirit of God. Yeah. So I had the word of God, and I had the Spirit of God working on me to bring me to that place of, of true forgiveness. And so I released that to the Lord. And, I had to do that over and over again. It was one time. How many times, how many times did I tell? I mean, it was I made the choice. And, and then I had to make the same choice again. And, I had a friend that asked me, have you really forgiven, your spouse? And I said, well, I, I made that decision, but I'm going to go back and ask again, Lord, do I need to forgive again? And sure enough, I did. There were there were, leftover pains that I had not forgiven. And so I needed to do it again. And, but, you know, the wonderful thing about God is he gives us grace when we align ourselves with him and and we're obedient to his word, we make decisions based on his truth and not on how we feel. Then he just releases his grace to us, and he enables us to get through things. And I'm really grateful to tell you today that that, area of forgiveness, it's still something that I deal with, but it is far less difficult than it was when I first started. And, you know, as followers of the Lord Jesus Christ, we are called upon to forgive. And I will never forget when a counselor said to me, you will never have to forgive more than you have already been forgiven. Yeah. And I so appreciated that. And and it's absolutely true. You know, I'm a person who has been forgiven for all of my sin past, present and future. How can I then not forgive somebody who's hurt me? Sounds like this became a daily decision for you to make. Yeah. It was it was a daily decision. And then it became a weekly decision, and then it became a monthly decision, and then it became an annual decision. You know, it was just spread out further and further down now, but it's something that as followers of Christ, we, we really should be professional for givers. It's something that we're going to be doing as people that have been forgiven. We are called upon to forgive others. I don't want to be a professional forgiver. That's not my that's not a heart. That's something we want on our resume. You know, it's not you know, obviously God has done a work through this, and he's also blessed you with another wife, Miss Kay. You guys have been married now 24 years, right? Yes, 24 years. April 20th. You know. What's that been like? Well, it's, it's been a wonderful experience. It's been a healing experience. Deeply grateful to have a godly wife who loves God more than she loves me and. That's what it takes, you know, in a marriage. You want a relationship where your spouse and yourself, you're both seeking the Lord first. You're putting him first in your relationship. And he is the center of your relationship. And so you're seeking the Lord together, and it makes your own relationship, rich and meaningful and it's what God designed for us. And my wife and I pray together regularly. We constantly work on oneness of spirit and our relationship. And, it's just been a wonderful time of healing and growth in our relationship. And we pray that God will use our marriage to attract other people to Christ. That's what we desire. And, it's absolutely what I believe brings honor to the Lord. So, Robert, what I hear you saying is that God has reconciled you so that you can reconcile others to Christ. Yeah. That. Absolutely. I think that's the purpose of all the pain that God allows in our lives is to bring us to that place where we are reconciled to God, and we are reconciling others to God. And we see his redemptive grace at work in our lives. And so we want to share that with other people. You know, I, I've seen this taking place in my own, my own ministry. I never thought, you know, I'm divorced. What did God do with me? Right? I never thought in my wildest dreams that he would ever have me leading a marriage conference. I mean, I've been divorced. What? What do I know about marriage? Right? Right. But God just opened the door for me to, Kay and I were too invited to lead a marriage conference. And this pastor, I. I told him, I said, you know, I've been divorced. I mean, what do I know to tell you about marriage and how can I share this with your church? And he said, well, you've been such a help to me and my wife. I just want you to share with our congregation what you shared with me. And I said, are you sure you want me? I mean, I tried to talk him out of it. I cannot tell you how many times I tried to talk him out of having, Kay and I up there to, lead that marriage conference and, sure enough, he said no. I said, I think the way God has worked in your life and redeemed this in your life makes you more approachable, and it makes you more relevant to the things that are taking place in people's lives. And so when I couldn't talk him out of me leading a marriage conference, I said, okay, God, if you want to use this. And so okay. And I packed our bags and we went to this church, up in New Jersey and, God just did a wonderful work in people's lives there. And it was a tremendous time of blessing and healing and, just growth in our lives and growth in the people's lives that were at the conference. So it was a tremendous time, and I was so grateful for God's amazing grace. For me, in that scenario, I couldn't believe that God could use me in a marriage conference. And it came down to a matter of me just obeying God and going to this conference and doing what he called me to do. But I again, I tried to get out of it so many different ways, and I said, no, this is the wrong time. And I couldn't come and I didn't want to do this. And are you sure this is what you want? And, you know, I've been divorced. How are you people gonna think about that? And. And he said, no. He said, I think you should come so I can. I went to the conference and God just blessed that obedience and used it, to bring hope and healing to marriages. And we had we had engaged couples. We had, couples who had been through divorce. We had couples that had been married 50 years. It was just, whole conference was just an amazing event. So I was grateful for the ways that God was able to use it and continue to redeem the things that had taken place in my life in that just like God, to take our greatest pain and use it at its greatest glory and now. But you know, you can't see that when you're the depth of the pain, you can't even imagine how God can use it. But he can, and he does. So, Robert, final question to you today for those who are joining us on this podcast, who are walking through the pain of loss, what would you what would be your final words of advice and encouragement to them? Be? Well, it would be this, the Lord Jesus Christ went to the cross, bore our sins in his body on that cross, took the punishment for all of our sins, our failures, our mistakes, our shortcomings, all of those things he took upon himself so we might be completely forgiven. And he went to the grave and defeated death. So we serve a resurrected Savior. And because God raised Jesus from the dead, there is no situation you can face that is hopeless. A risen Savior means there's hope. No matter what you're facing. Amen. Robert, is there a resource that a pastor or pastor's wife or family could use? Ministry leader could use to encourage them through a season of loss? Well, I think, you know, grief share is one of the best, resources that we have available. Grief share.org for anybody that's experiencing loss. I think, if you're experiencing loss in a marriage, one of the best things you can do is, read Tim Keller's book, The Meaning of Marriage. And, it's a great resource, for anybody who wants to know God's will and purposes for a marriage. And I think, you know, I would just really encourage people who are experiencing loss, when you are in that season, one of the things we tend to do is to isolate ourselves. And it's exactly the opposite of what you need to do, because you need to be in God's Word, and you need to be with God's people so they can continue to speak into your life. The grace and truth that God has for you. It is hard for the devil to lie to you and keep lying to you when you have brothers and sisters in Christ who surround you and keep praying for you. And and giving you grace and truth, speaking that into your life, you really need that. So don't isolate. Allow yourself to be in fellowship with God's people. Stay in God's Word and continue to put your hope in him. Amen. Yeah, and another good resource is, Lisa Turner's book. It wasn't supposed to be this way. Yeah. Fabulous book. And then also, we want to encourage you, if you're a pastor, reach out to us on Facebook at the pastors. Ally Robert leads that ministry. And if you're a pastor who is in isolation, man, get connected to that group. That's an incredible group that will encourage you to support you and pray for you. Right, Robert? Absolutely. Yeah. The Pastors’ Ally on Facebook. Just go to Facebook, type in The Pastors’ Ally and, request to join, and we'll ask you some vetting questions. And then you can be part of that community is for pastors only. And, it's a great place, a safe place for you to gain, support, encouragement and help and prayer when you're walking through a tough season. Yep. And we have that available also for the pastor's wife called the Confidante, if you will go to Facebook and look up the Confidante there's some vetting questions there. It's a safe place. Pastors’ wives only. And, they will, get you connected to other pastor's wives to be encouraged, supported and prayed for as well. And also, if you have pastors’ kids, if you're if you've got kids who are struggling in, or need someone to talk to, we have our ministry. And so all that can be found at, care for pastors, dawg. And, we want to direct you to that, website where you can get counseling support or also, check out our blogs. We have a lot of, material there that will help you through, any kind of situation that you can think of. And so, Robert, I want to thank you for being on the podcast today. We really have been encouraged, supported and enlightened because of your, your willingness to be vulnerable with us today. Thank you. Thanks for the privilege, Robby All right. Bye.